03-09-2014, 17:59
No estaría mal DZT, pero tampoco te fíes mucho de los garganta profunda que existen por twitter. Yo personalmente no me lo creo jaja. Saludos.
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03-09-2014, 17:59
03-09-2014, 17:59
(03-09-2014, 17:59)FrankJJ escribió: [ -> ]No estaría mal DZT, pero tampoco te fíes mucho de los garganta profunda que existen por twitter. Yo personalmente no me lo creo jaja. Saludos.
03-09-2014, 18:04
(03-09-2014, 17:31)CarreraConLluviaPlease escribió: [ -> ](03-09-2014, 17:07)Chusss escribió: [ -> ]En que quedamos, ¿fue por detrás o fue lateralmente?
Si vamos tu y yo en coche, y yo te alcanzo por detrás ¿de quien es la culpa?
Si vamos tu y yo en coche, y tu te echas sobre mi carril, y yo me salgo de la carretera o me choco contigo intentando esquivar la maniobra ¿de quien es la culpa?.
La normas en F1 no tienen porque ser las mismas que las de circulación en la vía publica aunque en este caso...si.
Fernando y Ham, culpables.
Es que es distinto, Rosberg no podia pasar por ahí en la vida porque es una sucesion de curvas derecha-izquierda-derecha aunque Hamilton hubiese trazado pegado a la derecha cosa que no se hace pero supongamoslo.
Rosberg se ve como gira el volante hacia la derecha y se ve en las ruedas, Hamilton hace lo propio, en ningun momento gira hacia la izquierda INVADIENDO el carril/trazada de Rosberg, es Rosberg quien quiere cerrar a Hamilton pero nunca tiene esa oportunidad porque en todo momento va por detras de el, como se ve en la imagen, Rosberg tenia mucho espacio por su izquierda pero obviamente no se va hacia ahí porque aunque hubiese ido recto sin girar a la derecha se habria ido por fuera de la pista, entonces no tenia ninguna oportunidad de adelantamiento
![[Imagen: jl03tx.jpg]](http://oi61.tinypic.com/jl03tx.jpg)
La tendría si Ham hubiera respetado su carril, pero esa explicación, el porque debía darle ese espacio etc, ya se ha explicado hasta la saciedad, asi que no vamos a cansar al personal.
03-09-2014, 18:13
Por cierto, siempre me han interesado los artículos sobre los estilos de pilotaje de los pilotos, y he encontrado este análisis de la revista Autosport. Es un artículo del año pasado en el que comparan los estilos de pilotaje de Alonso, Vettel y Hamilton. Está en inglés:
Fernando Alonso - Making Understeer Interesting
Fernando is medium-hard on the brakes and with a bit of overlap between braking and cornering. Then as he’s coming fully off the brakes he applies a lot of lock very quickly, initially partly stalling the front tyre to give a sort of false understeer. Occasionally the front will bite better than he anticipates and with so much lock on that can induce the rear into suddenly stepping out – and it’s then you see him applying punches of oversteer to which he’s very attuned, as if he’s half-expecting it. More usually the understeer stays through most of the corner and the balance is maintained with more or less throttle.
It’s a less extreme version of the technique that was very evident in the rearward-heavy Renaults of 2003-’06. But it wasn’t invented for those cars, they simply allowed him to amplify it to good effect. “I’ve always driven like that – ever since karts,” he said back in 2003.
It’s a technique that allows him to take in enormous momentum, making the car very alive but without the hazard of too much oversteer. It lends itself to great repeatability, but puts a slightly low ceiling on ultimate peak grip. But it’s consistent, makes the car malleable in that crucial, early part of the corner and it keeps strain off the delicate rear tyres. It’s a great fighting technique, working over a wide variety of lines and grip levels as he uses the throttle to fine- hone the car’s placement.
It’s a bullying technique, dominating the car rather than going with its flow in the way, for example, Kimi Raikkonen would. It’s quite similar, in fact, to how Felipe Massa drives but is less aggressive on the brakes, slightly earlier and therefore more consistent, with fewer line-altering lock-ups. It was a technique that allowed Alonso to minimise the penalty of the trait of 2010 and ’11 Ferraris not bringing their front tyres up to temperature quickly enough.
Because he doesn’t actually need the ultimate front grip; so long as he gets some sort of turn-in he’s manipulating the angle with brakes and throttle, almost rally-style. It’s a long way removed from the minimal-input neutrality Michael Schumacher used to stretch the Ferrari elastic in the tyre-war days, but in the Pirelli era Alonso’s more physical technique is probably more effective. Michael was still trying to drive his way in the control-tyre era, using steering lock only grudgingly on his Mercedes, his brain hard-wired to feel that steering lock equalled momentum loss. But when the tyre cannot support the momentum, the car refuses to adopt a stance of sliding neutrality after just the slightest hint of steering lock. Thus the Alonso method is much more adaptable.
With the higher grip of the 2013 Pirellis it’s going to be interesting to see if that still applies. If it does not, expect Alonso to adapt, just as he did when going from Michelins to Bridgestones in 2007 – though it took him a few races.
Sebastian Vettel - The Turn-in 'Rotation-meister'
Like Alonso, Vettel is medium-hard on the brakes but less brutal with the initial steering. He prefers the car to be quite nervous and pointy on entry and is ready to remove some of the initial lock once the front has gripped and caused the rear to step out. He has a great feel for pivoting the car in this way to quicken its direction change.
With the Red Bull’s exhaust-enhanced rear downforce he was the first to develop a counter- intuitive technique of taking what would normally be excessive speed in, getting the front in and then using the resultant oversteer to get him the direction change early in the corner.
Conventionally, this would be counter- productive; the slide would continue after you’d got the direction change, losing you momentum and more than losing what you’d just gained. But with exhaust-enhanced downforce like he had in 2011, he would at this point get back hard on the throttle and have the exhaust gas do its stuff by nailing the back end. So he’d get to have his cake and eat it.
It’s a very unnatural thing to do – with the tail threatening to slide too far, the last thing you feel you want to do is stand on the gas. But Seb proved brilliantly adept at it. When the 2012 regulations took most of the blown-diffuser effect away, the Red Bull initially was merely competitive – and into the bargain Vettel’s superiority over team-mate Mark Webber evaporated. But into the last third of the season Red Bull had not only got a significant chunk of exhaust-derived downforce back via re-shaping of the rear bodywork, but had also introduced a tweak in the rear suspension that gave the car a roll-oversteer characteristic into slow turns.
This got Seb back his quick direction change – and now with enough exhaust-enhanced rear downforce to tame that slide once he got back on the throttle. It loosely replicated the behaviour of the 2011 car, enough to allow Seb back what he termed “my tricks”. Watching the RB9 in action at Barcelona testing through the slow section at the end of the lap it’s very clear that the trait has been retained, maybe even enhanced.
The car positively rotates around itself as the rear rolls, nice and early into the corner, getting the car perfectly lined up with the apex and enabling the steering lock to be removed as he nails the throttle. It’s a beautiful case study of technology and technique developing together.
How much the impetus has come from Adrian Newey and the Red Bull vehicle dynamicists and how much from Vettel isn’t clear, but it isn’t important. It’s almost certainly been an organic development, a direction to follow that has allowed the driver to take full advantage of his strengths and perhaps leading the engineers in a direction they wouldn’t have otherwise thought to go. Why, after all, would you ordinarily want to introduce roll-oversteer into a car?
Lewis Hamilton - Last of the Late Brakers
Lewis is a traditional late-braking, oversteer- loving driver in the lineage of Jochen Rindt, Ronnie Peterson, Keke Rosberg and Mika Hakkinen. He has a fantastic feel for how to modulate the brake pedal as the downforce bleeds away, reducing the pressure so as to keep the wheels just on the point of locking after a very heavy and late initial application when the car is smothered in aerodynamic grip.
Hamilton demands a lot of braking power. He will then take a geometrically perfect line, usually visibly later than Alonso into a slow corner, and will carry an audacious entry speed as he turns in, too much for the rear end to stay in line. But without the same degree of exhaust-type downforce as the Red Bull, typically that rear-end slide lasts longer and consumes more time than Vettel’s, forcing a lower mid-corner minimum speed. But his exquisite feel minimises the downsides of that; he’s onto it early and can carry way more momentum than anyone else in an oversteering state in a conventional car.
He’s very much a reactive driver in the sense that he’s prepared to deal with whatever consequences the car throws at him after he’s pointed it at the apex, not needing to build up to find a particular groove and rhythm.
He’s not dealing with the last finger-tip sensations of tyre grip through steering feel, but simply reacting to what the car does, confident that he can invariably deal with it. Although Paddy Lowe at the time reckoned Lewis’s ease with oversteer would probably lead McLaren down a development path of more aggressively pointy cars, not needing to have them as stable as with previous drivers, it didn’t really pan out that way. The arrival of Jenson Button maybe had something to do with this. Certainly there were traits about the 2010 car that Button didn’t care for and it was notable that he was much happier with the general neutrality of the 2011 and ’12 cars.
Hamilton meanwhile simply adapted to what he was given – and that’s the beauty of his preferred technique; it’s fantastically adaptable for all handling traits, tyre behaviour, grip levels and weather conditions. Only in changeable conditions, with grip varying from one corner tothenextlapbylap–suchaswesawfora time in Brazil last year – did Button’s finer- honed feel allow him to be faster.
Muy interesante las diferencias entre los tres pilotos. Esta es la portada del número en el que aparece este artículo:![[Imagen: 11042013.jpg]](http://digitaledition.autosport.com/issue/2013/covers/11042013.jpg)
.
Saludos.
Fernando Alonso - Making Understeer Interesting
Fernando is medium-hard on the brakes and with a bit of overlap between braking and cornering. Then as he’s coming fully off the brakes he applies a lot of lock very quickly, initially partly stalling the front tyre to give a sort of false understeer. Occasionally the front will bite better than he anticipates and with so much lock on that can induce the rear into suddenly stepping out – and it’s then you see him applying punches of oversteer to which he’s very attuned, as if he’s half-expecting it. More usually the understeer stays through most of the corner and the balance is maintained with more or less throttle.
It’s a less extreme version of the technique that was very evident in the rearward-heavy Renaults of 2003-’06. But it wasn’t invented for those cars, they simply allowed him to amplify it to good effect. “I’ve always driven like that – ever since karts,” he said back in 2003.
It’s a technique that allows him to take in enormous momentum, making the car very alive but without the hazard of too much oversteer. It lends itself to great repeatability, but puts a slightly low ceiling on ultimate peak grip. But it’s consistent, makes the car malleable in that crucial, early part of the corner and it keeps strain off the delicate rear tyres. It’s a great fighting technique, working over a wide variety of lines and grip levels as he uses the throttle to fine- hone the car’s placement.
It’s a bullying technique, dominating the car rather than going with its flow in the way, for example, Kimi Raikkonen would. It’s quite similar, in fact, to how Felipe Massa drives but is less aggressive on the brakes, slightly earlier and therefore more consistent, with fewer line-altering lock-ups. It was a technique that allowed Alonso to minimise the penalty of the trait of 2010 and ’11 Ferraris not bringing their front tyres up to temperature quickly enough.
Because he doesn’t actually need the ultimate front grip; so long as he gets some sort of turn-in he’s manipulating the angle with brakes and throttle, almost rally-style. It’s a long way removed from the minimal-input neutrality Michael Schumacher used to stretch the Ferrari elastic in the tyre-war days, but in the Pirelli era Alonso’s more physical technique is probably more effective. Michael was still trying to drive his way in the control-tyre era, using steering lock only grudgingly on his Mercedes, his brain hard-wired to feel that steering lock equalled momentum loss. But when the tyre cannot support the momentum, the car refuses to adopt a stance of sliding neutrality after just the slightest hint of steering lock. Thus the Alonso method is much more adaptable.
With the higher grip of the 2013 Pirellis it’s going to be interesting to see if that still applies. If it does not, expect Alonso to adapt, just as he did when going from Michelins to Bridgestones in 2007 – though it took him a few races.
Sebastian Vettel - The Turn-in 'Rotation-meister'
Like Alonso, Vettel is medium-hard on the brakes but less brutal with the initial steering. He prefers the car to be quite nervous and pointy on entry and is ready to remove some of the initial lock once the front has gripped and caused the rear to step out. He has a great feel for pivoting the car in this way to quicken its direction change.
With the Red Bull’s exhaust-enhanced rear downforce he was the first to develop a counter- intuitive technique of taking what would normally be excessive speed in, getting the front in and then using the resultant oversteer to get him the direction change early in the corner.
Conventionally, this would be counter- productive; the slide would continue after you’d got the direction change, losing you momentum and more than losing what you’d just gained. But with exhaust-enhanced downforce like he had in 2011, he would at this point get back hard on the throttle and have the exhaust gas do its stuff by nailing the back end. So he’d get to have his cake and eat it.
It’s a very unnatural thing to do – with the tail threatening to slide too far, the last thing you feel you want to do is stand on the gas. But Seb proved brilliantly adept at it. When the 2012 regulations took most of the blown-diffuser effect away, the Red Bull initially was merely competitive – and into the bargain Vettel’s superiority over team-mate Mark Webber evaporated. But into the last third of the season Red Bull had not only got a significant chunk of exhaust-derived downforce back via re-shaping of the rear bodywork, but had also introduced a tweak in the rear suspension that gave the car a roll-oversteer characteristic into slow turns.
This got Seb back his quick direction change – and now with enough exhaust-enhanced rear downforce to tame that slide once he got back on the throttle. It loosely replicated the behaviour of the 2011 car, enough to allow Seb back what he termed “my tricks”. Watching the RB9 in action at Barcelona testing through the slow section at the end of the lap it’s very clear that the trait has been retained, maybe even enhanced.
The car positively rotates around itself as the rear rolls, nice and early into the corner, getting the car perfectly lined up with the apex and enabling the steering lock to be removed as he nails the throttle. It’s a beautiful case study of technology and technique developing together.
How much the impetus has come from Adrian Newey and the Red Bull vehicle dynamicists and how much from Vettel isn’t clear, but it isn’t important. It’s almost certainly been an organic development, a direction to follow that has allowed the driver to take full advantage of his strengths and perhaps leading the engineers in a direction they wouldn’t have otherwise thought to go. Why, after all, would you ordinarily want to introduce roll-oversteer into a car?
Lewis Hamilton - Last of the Late Brakers
Lewis is a traditional late-braking, oversteer- loving driver in the lineage of Jochen Rindt, Ronnie Peterson, Keke Rosberg and Mika Hakkinen. He has a fantastic feel for how to modulate the brake pedal as the downforce bleeds away, reducing the pressure so as to keep the wheels just on the point of locking after a very heavy and late initial application when the car is smothered in aerodynamic grip.
Hamilton demands a lot of braking power. He will then take a geometrically perfect line, usually visibly later than Alonso into a slow corner, and will carry an audacious entry speed as he turns in, too much for the rear end to stay in line. But without the same degree of exhaust-type downforce as the Red Bull, typically that rear-end slide lasts longer and consumes more time than Vettel’s, forcing a lower mid-corner minimum speed. But his exquisite feel minimises the downsides of that; he’s onto it early and can carry way more momentum than anyone else in an oversteering state in a conventional car.
He’s very much a reactive driver in the sense that he’s prepared to deal with whatever consequences the car throws at him after he’s pointed it at the apex, not needing to build up to find a particular groove and rhythm.
He’s not dealing with the last finger-tip sensations of tyre grip through steering feel, but simply reacting to what the car does, confident that he can invariably deal with it. Although Paddy Lowe at the time reckoned Lewis’s ease with oversteer would probably lead McLaren down a development path of more aggressively pointy cars, not needing to have them as stable as with previous drivers, it didn’t really pan out that way. The arrival of Jenson Button maybe had something to do with this. Certainly there were traits about the 2010 car that Button didn’t care for and it was notable that he was much happier with the general neutrality of the 2011 and ’12 cars.
Hamilton meanwhile simply adapted to what he was given – and that’s the beauty of his preferred technique; it’s fantastically adaptable for all handling traits, tyre behaviour, grip levels and weather conditions. Only in changeable conditions, with grip varying from one corner tothenextlapbylap–suchaswesawfora time in Brazil last year – did Button’s finer- honed feel allow him to be faster.
Muy interesante las diferencias entre los tres pilotos. Esta es la portada del número en el que aparece este artículo:
.Saludos.
03-09-2014, 18:15
03-09-2014, 18:26
(03-09-2014, 13:34)DE-ZETA-TE escribió: [ -> ]Ya dije que por mi parte, y refiriéndonos exclusivamente al tema de debate de este hilo, estaba ya todo dicho. No es mi ánimo relanzar esta discusión.
Aún así, y ya que había peticiones expresas de que se aportaran declaraciones o informaciones de los protagonistas de la F1 apoyando a Rosberg en este tema, y sobre todo por parte de El abuelo y/o ethernet, aquí os dejo esto...
El link original aportado por Abu es este:
Drivers back Rosberg over Hamilton clash
By: Andrew Maitland / GMM, F1 editor, Motorsport.com
Posted: 52 minutes ago
Sep.3 (GMM) Champions Fernando Alonso and Sebastian Vettel have backed Nico Rosberg amid the German's run-in with title rival and teammate Lewis Hamilton.
Hamilton accused his Mercedes colleague of having deliberately crashed into him at Spa-Francorchamps, but Spaniard Alonso thinks: "It was a racing incident.
"It's impossible that Nico from the cockpit could have been so precise with his front wing to have cut a tyre of another car," the Ferrari driver and double world champion told Britain's Sky.
"You need to be in surgery at the hospital with that sort of precision.
"The bad part of the incident was for Hamilton, but it could have been the other way around -- maybe Hamilton's tyre resisted and Nico had to change the front wing and his race was over," he added.
Reigning quadruple world champion Vettel has the same view.
"I think it was just a normal racing incident," said the Red Bull driver, "and the discussion of intention should not arise.
"No one intentionally risks losing his wing," Vettel told Sport Bild, "and no one makes themselves the target of (the accusation of) unfair driving."
Even Nico Hulkenberg, the highly rated Force India driver, backed Rosberg's view of the incident.
"Nico did nothing wrong," he is quoted as saying. "He tried to overtake because he thought he was faster."
Hamilton and Rosberg will resume their rivalry on Thursday at Monza, after the FIA paired them together for the official press conference.
Fuente: MOTORSPORT.COM
Traducción:
Pilotos respaldan a Rosberg en el choque con Hamilton
Sep.3 (GMM) Los Campeones Fernando Alonso y Sebastian Vettel han respaldado a Nico Rosberg en medio del encontronazo del alemán con su rival por el título y compañero Lewis Hamilton
Hamilton acusó a su colega de Mercedes de haberse estrellado deliberadamente contra él en Spa-Francorchamps, pero el español Alonso cree qué: "fue un incidente de carrera".
"Es imposible que Nico desde el copick pudiera haber sido tan preciso con su alerón delantero para cortar un neumático de otro monoplaza" dijo el piloto de Ferrari y doble campeón del mundo Sky de Gran Bretaña.
"¡Tú necesitas de la cirugía del hospital para ese tipo de precisión!"
"La peor parte del incidente fue para Hamilton, pero podría haber sido al revés. Tal vez el neumático de Hamilton pudo haber resistido, Nico tuviera que haber cambiado el alerón delantero y su carrera había terminado", agregó.
El vigente cuádruple campeón del mundo Vettel tiene la misma opinión.
"Creo que fue sólo un incidente de carrera normal", dijo el piloto de Red Bull. "Y la discusión sobre la intención no debería surgir".
"Nadie arriesga intencionadamente perder su alerón", dijo Vettel a Sport Bild. "Y nadie dice de sí mismo (se acusa de) que su objetivo sea una conducción injusta".
Incluso Nico Hulkenberg, el cualificado piloto de Force India, respaldó la opinión de Rosberg del incidente.
"Nico no hizo nada mal", es citado y diciendo: "Él intentó adelantar porque pensaba que era más rápido."
Hamilton y Rosberg reanudarán su rivalidad el jueves en Monza, después de que la FIA les emparejado juntos durante la rueda de prensa oficial.
Soy consciente que ninguno de ellos culpa a Hamilton ni menciona las normas. Y sé que se me dirá que dos de ellos son alemanes, como Rosberg, y el otro puede tener una cierta inquina por viejas afrentas. Yo por mi parte comento que me parecen de las voces más reputadas que pueden opinar sobre el incidente... pero no me voy a meter de nuevo en la discusión, porque ya he dejado clara mi postura y argumentado mis razones de sobra.
Simplemente satisfago una petición que El abuelo a cubierto en twitter, y a la que ethernet no ha contestado (aún) y sus motivos (respetables) tendrá para no hacerlo.
![[Imagen: 5Xw4eN.jpg]](http://imageshack.com/a/img743/9130/5Xw4eN.jpg)
Si es que no hacéis más que darnos argumentos.
Os voy a recordar, porque puede parecer que se nos ha olvidado el meollo de la cuestión, que lo que he defendido aquí desde el principio es que se trata de un incidente de carrera y que JAMÁS SE PUEDE CULPABILIZAR A HAMILTON .
En lo que RESPALDAN esos pilotos a Rosberg es en la acusación de que fuera algo premeditado el pinchar el neumático de Hamilton.
Aquí, algunos, entre los que mencioné a Ethernet y El Abuelo, se descolgaron con la CULPABILIDAD DE HAMILTON, en el accidente, llegando incluso a pedir que se le sancionara.
Solicité declaraciones acerca del incidente en las que otros pilotos, en un análisis profesional, achacaran alguna incorrección de Hamilton y me venís con una declaraciones apoyando a Rosberg, no sobre el incidente en sí, si no acerca de las acusaciones de Hamilton de intencionalidad ¿De verdad creíais que iba a colar?
Pero al hilo de estas declaraciones de Fernando sobre la precisión quirúrgica que hay que tener para pinchar un neumático con un alerón…
¿Qué dicen aquellos que defendieron que en la salida de Japón 2012 Raikkonen pinchó intencionadamente la rueda de Fernando?
03-09-2014, 18:29
(03-09-2014, 17:55)DE-ZETA-TE escribió: [ -> ]Por cierto y ya fuera de coñas...Me dejas patidifuso.
Me han comentado fuentes de toda confianza en twitter que tienen una información fidedigna sobre una colaboración off the record de Red Bull y Ferrari, compartiendo información clave para poder dar alcance a Mercedes para la próxima temporada.
En concreto se trata de un nuevo sistema ERS optimizado por Renault, que sumaría en torno a 190 CV al ICE. Al parecer se han llevado a cabo unas pruebas secretas en Fiorano a invitación de la Scuderia, comparando un RB10 dotado con el nuevo sistema contra un F14 T con la evo montada en Canadá.
Por su parte Ferrari desarrolla un nuevo sistema para los pit stop, que podría llegar a ahorrar hasta 2 sg. en cada parada...
Más abajo os paso imágenes.
![[Imagen: tumblr_lsb4t204Kz1qhy6fn.gif]](http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsb4t204Kz1qhy6fn.gif)
![[Imagen: roadside_bear_surprise.gif]](http://gifatron.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/roadside_bear_surprise.gif)
03-09-2014, 18:47
03-09-2014, 18:59
(03-09-2014, 18:15)Arco Cigomático escribió: [ -> ]...
Me da hasta vergüenza ajena el ver a gente que sabe de F1 en debates de este tipo. Sabéis que no tenéis razón y seguís porfiando. De ahí que calificara vuestra actitud de prevaricadora.
Debe ser algo relacionado con toda esa parafernalia de Los Tercios que os hace "sostenella y no enmendalla".
... pero Arcooooooooooooooo ....
![[Imagen: keep-calm-and-respect-1.png]](http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-respect-1.png)
...relájate hombre, que te va a dar algo.....
![[Imagen: kit-estress.jpg]](http://www.todohumor.com/UserFiles/Image/imagenes/2010/julio10/kit-estress.jpg)
Por cierto, aquí como ya te comenté ultimamente los únicos Tercios que se ven son éstos, los findes de GePé...
...ruincete que eres un ruincete...
![[Imagen: mala-baba-forges.jpg]](http://www.diasdelana.com/wp/wp-content/mala-baba-forges.jpg)
03-09-2014, 19:02